10 Things I Hate About You (jk, you know we love ya)

Shakespearean plots never looked so y2k! Blair swoons over Heath Ledger, Veronica constructs conspiracy theories, and you... might just believe them!

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Hey, come on over. Mom's not home till six, and we're exploring the TV shows, movies, and pop culture media that made us all turn down the volume so our parents wouldn't hear. We're gonna build our intimacy literacy and dig into all the weird messages we took from pop culture about sex, relationships, and ourselves. Because, let's be honest, this was all the sex ed we got. Today, we are discussing 10 things I hate about you. I cannot wait to discuss this with Veronica Dress. She's a sexuality educator, coach, and intimacy director for theater. Veronica, I've been burning for you. Ah pining.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_03 0:48

And I can't, I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Uh, I'm joined by the person most likely to be found reading a super large copy of The Bell Jar on a Friday night. Our one and only Blair Somerville. Therapist.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

I have literally done that.

SPEAKER_02 1:04

Therapist specializing in queer identities, relationships, and sex. Blair, this was your first time watching this film.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

This was my first time watching Ten Things I Hate About You. And it was your debut. Wow. I just I have so much to talk about. It's not your first time though.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

No, no. I'm an old faithful of this one. This was in the rotation growing up quite a bit, but not in the way that it has like a particular soft spot in my life. I mean, I liked it a lot. I like it a lot in a nostalgia sort of way, but it's not a an emotionally important movie of the story of my life, if that makes sense. I think it was on TV a lot growing up, or like was an easy one to have at a sleepover, you know?

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Yeah, I can I can see that. Do you have our quickie for us? For people who like me. I have a little quickie.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

I think I assumed more people had seen this than perhaps have, because this was your first time, and when I watched it, it was also my partner's first time, which I did not know. I would have asked them to sit and really take in the entire film because they came and went during different scenes. So, for those of you who don't know, and more importantly, for those of you who know that this season's theme is classics, you might be like, How is this classic? And how do we decide? This movie, believe it or not, is adapted from William Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew.

unknown 2:32

What?

SPEAKER_02 2:34

And as you watch the film with that in mind, you'll notice lots of names and locations are used that are very Shakespearean in nature. And there's even two some minor minor characters who have a thing for Shakespeare. So Ten Things I Hate About You starts off with Cameron, who's a new student at Padua High, another little Shakespeare moment for you. Sitting in the office of the quirky guidance counselor, Miss Perky, who's played by none other than Alice and Janny. He's shown around the school by Michael, also known as Bernard in The Santa Claus, who becomes his bestie. So he's new and he really gets the lay of the land from Michael. He first sees one of our leading ladies, Bianca Stratford, played by Alex Mack, if you're familiar with that TV show as a millennial. She's this beautiful sophomore, but the problem with Bianca that everyone knows is that she's not allowed to date.

SPEAKER_03 3:34

Oh, Bianca.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

I know. Her dad is super intense, is kind of the narrative. And neither is her quote-unquote shrew sister, Katarina, known as Kat, who is played by Julia Stiles. She is super into indie rock and feminist prose and hates conformity, and she's always railing against the system in ways that are both appropriate and also very, very funny. Early in the movie, their dad alters his house rule that now Bianca can date as long as Kat dates too. He says this knowing that Kat's never gonna actually go on dates because she seems so steadfast in hating dudes. And not from what we are told in the film, not in a queer way, like not in a oh, I'm not into dudes' way, but like very much I'm just not into dating. So in order for Cameron, our young Joseph Joseph Gordon Levitt, for him to be able to date Bianca, he's gotta find somebody to date Kat first. So he and Michael enlist the help of the pretty boy, jerk, model, Joey, Donner, who they trick into getting him to think that he's gonna get to take out Bianca if he pays someone to take out Kat. Their hope the whole time is like, yeah, we're just using him kind of as a cash cow. We are not expecting Bianca to actually want to go out with this guy. He's such a douchebag. There's a twist, obviously, that happens. So obviously, they decide, they try, they try and trick everybody or convince everybody to take the bait and go on a date with Kat, but all nobody on campus is willing to risk it.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

They're terrified.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Right. The the quote, the term that's thrown around to describe her often is heinous bitch. But there we find Patrick Verona, Shakespeare, a bad boy with a mysterious reputation. There's lots of lore around him. People are like, he killed a guy. He ate a live duck once. He lit a state trooper on fire. Maybe he even had a porn career played by none other than Heath Ledger. So exciting. So heath Ledger at first is reticent to take on this gig. Eventually, when he gets the pretty boy Joey to up the price, he agrees. Paid up front. At first, this is an aside. At first, the pay was like 30 bucks total.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

When he started at like, I'll pay you 30 bucks. I was like, holy shit, inflation is hitting me hard right now.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

I I was like, certainly with inflation, but looking back, I was like, Sir as a kid, I must have, I don't remember ever being like, that's a ridiculously small amount amount of money. So I now knowing that they they um they upped the price. So they begin to go on these dates. He finds out information with the help of Cameron and Bianca, who is brought in on the on the ruse. Bianca is told by Joseph Gordon Levitt, we're we're trying to make this happen so that you can go to the prom.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Because she wants to date.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

She wants to date bad. She's very much giving Rapunzel this whole movie, right? She's locked in the tower. Both the dad, who is gynecologist, who had his wife leave him recently, is exerting a lot of power and control over his daughters with a lot of shame-based, fear-based dad ownership over their sexuality energy. In some ways, that is really comedic, and also we can get into. But so she's like, I gotta get out of here. I want to go date. I want to get to live a life, even if it's mistakes, I want to get to make them. So she somehow Heath Ledger eventually convinces through showing through showing up at the indie chick concerts that she goes to, through showing up at poetry readings, eventually convinces her, like, yeah, I'll go on, I'll go on a to this party with you. They go to a party, she gets wasted, and Heath Ledger comes to her aid. It's very sweet. This is the interaction where they start to realize, like, oh, maybe I actually have feelings for you. And meanwhile, Bianca excitedly also gets to go, and things kind of backfire for Cameron, aka Joseph Gordon Levitt, because he assumed, okay, we can get her to this party, then she and I can get together. But she hooked, she spends the whole night with Joey and lives to regret it because we see that Joey is just so full of himself and just strikes model poses the whole time. As is the way in romantic comedies, there is a time where Julia Stiles and Heath Ledger are at odds because she is suspicious as to why he's pushing going to prom so bad. And they have an argument. There's eventually a moment where they almost kiss in the car, and he's the one who doesn't go through with it and says, maybe we should do this another time. So they're upset with each other. He ends up getting the school, like janitorial staff to give him access to the school stadium and microphone so he can make a public fool of himself to try and like humiliate himself back into her good graces. And it does work. It works. He sings, You're just too good to be true, with the school marching band. It's a fantastic scene. They end up going to prom together. It's very exciting. There are many little interactions between Kat and her sister along the way, in terms of why won't you let me live my life? Why are you and dad treating me like Rapunzel? As well as some information that the little sister didn't have all the data on. They go to prom. We think it's all gonna be delightful. But of course, Joey, the asshole, sees that Bianca brought Joseph Gordon Levitt, Cameron, to the prom because he was the only person to call her on her BS and tell her she was selfish when she was ignoring him at the party. And so she kisses him, they end up kind of this will they, won't they? She goes to prom with Joseph Gordon Levitt. It's adorable, all is right with the world. But when model Joey finds out, he angrily goes up to Heath Ledger on the dance floor and says, I didn't pay you to take out Kat so that this guy could end up going with Bianca to the prom. Oh God, and Kat hears it. Julia Styles hears it. She hears it and he tries to explain himself. He tries to kiss her. That does not go well. And we see the next few days, things have settled. They haven't really talked since, but they're in English class together, which is the only class we really see as a backdrop to the whole the whole show. And they were supposed to rewrite a sonnet because Shakespeare. And Kat gets up to read her poem, her sonnet, and it's all 10 things she hates about Keith Ledger. But the final things she hates is that I hate the way that I don't hate you. Not even a little bit, not even at all. And she cries, he looks pensive, and she comes outside after school to find that he has bought her offender guitar, which is all she ever wanted. And so they have this interaction about how he used all of the money to on this gift for her, and how he it started as a gig for money, but he messed up. He fell in love with her. And then they kiss in the parking lot as we pan out with a drone shot over the whole school. And presumably playing on the roof. Everyone's happy. The end.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

The end, everyone's happy. Bianca kicked Joey's ass at the prom. She beat him up, and she, you know, had her night with JGL.

SPEAKER_02 11:43

Yeah. And they go sailing together. Like the day after prom, we see Bianca and go up to Kat who's like reading morosely on their stunning wraparound porch and is like, Are you sure you don't want to come out with us? You don't want to come sailing? It's cute. It's the first we prom is the first time that we see the sisters be a team together and really care about each other as people, as opposed to like pitying one another against or pitying, pitying against one another to get what they want. It's very, it's very sweet how she and Joseph Gordon Levitt end up happy together. We see it seems like a very like actual high school relationship, which is sweet. I think it's because Joseph Gordon Levitt actually looks like a high school student and not he looks like a baby. Uh yeah, and not like a grown adult playing a high school student. I think they're the same height. It's really tender. It's really precious.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Very cute. Wait, uh, what year did this movie come out?

SPEAKER_02 12:39

I want to hear your guess.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

It feels late 90s to me. I'm gonna put it 1998 is my guess.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

1999. Oh my god. I was so close.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Okay, yeah. It feels like it. This the outfits are very late 90s.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Oh, it's beautifully late 90s. It's kind of like clueless in terms of the aesthetic, maybe a little bit closer to Y2K than Clueless was, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

And this is a really star-studded movie. It especially what I loved about it was that a lot of the folks who were kind of B characters end up being huge stars now, right? Alice and Janny plays the principal who's writing smut in her office the whole time. Yeah. Gabrielle Union is the conniving best friend Chastity who swoops in and goes to prom with Joey when Bianca turns him down and goes with Jonathan or Joseph Gordon Levitt instead. Yeah. It was it was sweet to see the where are they now of it all. But I'm curious, as a person who when we listener, when we got on this call and I said, Are you ready? Blair looked like they were about to explode with thoughts, feelings, and opinions. And so I'm almost nervous now to ask what shift, what you think, and what you feel in. Tell me your high-level takeaways before we get into specific character dynamics.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

I feel so torn because so oh God. It's a little bit like when we watched She's All That, where like overall it's a fun movie. And overall, uh, you know, it's Heath Ledger and Julia Styles, and they're great together. It's obviously classic romance, so it has some strong elements to it that are just appealing as a romantic story. And they're genuinely Julia Stiles and Heath Ledger, like their characters are a great match for each other.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_03 14:42

And they have a genuine connection that I think is really nice. And also, there is so much in this movie that aged so badly.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Yeah. I think to that end, I just want to read out some quotes.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Give us some quotes from the film.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

This is I almost could see, I'm showing Blair my notes app on my phone. It almost looks like a crappy poem.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Woo! And also, okay, what was it that he said? At one point, the dad is lecturing his daughters and he's like, I was helping in delivery for a 15-year-old mother today. And do you know what she said to me?

SPEAKER_02 15:22

And then Bianca said, Bianca says, Oh, that she was a crack whore who should have should have never had a baby or something, or should have used a condom.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Yes, yeah, should have used a condom. And he says, almost, she said, I should have listened to my father. I was like, oh my god, there's just so much. There's a lot happening in here. There is. They threw out the R slur, so that was fun.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Yes, they did. They did throw out the R slur.

SPEAKER_03 15:51

It took me right back to middle school.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

If we come, if we like zoom the lens back with the high-end drone that was used in this film to look at the whole thing, the overarching premise is rooted in our dad is not handling his divorce well, and not at all, believes that his job as a gynecologist gives him the and a father gives him the right to use fear, shame, and ownership as a tactic of control over his daughter's lives. And were that not the case, none of this movie would have happened. Here we are. A lot of it is shown comedically, and it is fun. Like, right? If you can, there are certain movies that I tell my partner, we just have to take off our modern-day thinking hat and let it wash all over us. Just let it, just let it happen. You know? This is one of those, just like she's all that, right? Very similar that way. Yeah. The the messages about sexuality and specifically ownership over or like entitlement to women's sexuality is super strong in this, right? That yeah, she's pure, she's a virgin. The expectation is if we can pay someone, then we automatically standing in our way. Not that this is an actual person in front of us who maybe wouldn't want to date us.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

And even he's a Ledger and he adjusts his tact a few times because he's realizing that what he assumed would be, I'm really hot. If I pay her attention, she's gonna want to date me. He is sorely mistaken in that, in a way that I think is fun. It's fun to watch. And also, I hope gets to that point a little bit for people.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Right. I I kept thinking that it was so I couldn't tell how this movie felt about the themes it was touching on. Like, because it does sort of touch on themes about how women's sexuality is treated completely differently than men's, but it's it's really limited in how it approaches it. And in some ways, it like challenges it. Like Kat is the main character, and she's meant to be sympathetic, and she's often right about the things she says about how men interact with women and that it's bullshit. And also the movie makes fun of her for this as well.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

That she's being different just for the sake of being different. And like you said, the overprotective dad is played way over the top, and it is very funny and comedic. And also, he's portrayed as ultimately sympathetic and and kind of correct, because Joey was chastity, told Bianca, like he was just trying to nail you, he had a bet with his friends or whatever. So it's like I I can't tell what it feels what the movie is saying. I guess I was talking about this with my partner, and he pointed out that this is how parents can feel to teenagers, is that they are so ridiculous and over the top and completely controlling. And also there's like a little grain of like sympathetic perspective or a grain of truth to what they're saying. Because and so maybe some of that is down to like the target audience maybe being more of a teenage crowd and less of me as a 30-something adult.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

True.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Yeah, I see that absolutely. There's even a line that Julia Styles says, Kat says to him. I think it's Julia Styles, says to the dad, that is just because you feel so out of control of your life doesn't mean that you have the right to control every aspect of mine. Which I thought, right. And so because of those seeds that are in there, I think the hope of the movie is for us to have a little bit more empathy or compassion for all of the characters, minus Joey the model. Right. Like we have moments that build empathy for Heath Ledger. We have moments that build empathy for Kat. We also have moments that make them complicated. And there's some of that lens of like, well, both of these characters are moving through the movie with the expectation that everyone thinks they're scary. And so what is the coping skill of leaning into what people believe of you because it keeps you safe versus the vulnerability that it takes to actually be seen in your softness that they both do. Bianca and Joseph Gordon Levitt. I struggle with Joseph Gordon Levitt a little bit because he's pitched as like the good guy, which he is. Oh, I struggle. He is compared to Joey, who he was, I think he was also in Boy Meets World. I don't know. I've seen the guy who played Joey before, who's like this like model full of himself character, who is very problematic. And we hear more and more about that as it goes, that he's like a real asshole of a guy. And I think compared to him, Joseph Gordon Leavitt is a sweetie pie. And I think his his character and his heart are sweet and caring. However, he's still a product of these messages that young dudes are getting around some of that savior complex of like I'm here to save you, or if I'm nice to you, then you owe me your attention and your interest. The whole nice kind of a nice guy's finish last, a meditation on nice guys finish last.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Absolutely. Yeah, I I struggled with JGL because, like you said, there's a lot that's very cute. He looks like a high schooler. There's a lot that is, I think, well characterized between him and Bianca as like I would believe they're 15 year olds trying to figure out what dating is in relationships. And that's cute. And also, he he is so objectifying. Like, and he fixates on Bianca because she's cute.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

He's never spoken to her.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

He's never spoken to her. He is so full of himself. He says, I'll learn French and just become her tutor. Like he's immediately just gonna be better than her at it. And then in the car, after the party where he's upset that she went there with Joey, and he ended up giving her a ride home after Joey was just showing her the differences between like an allergy model face and an underwear model face or whatever the fuck it was. He gives her the his whole nice guy rant where he's like, I've been putting in my nice guy tokens, I've been being a good boy, I want to cash in my good boy points for sex, and it's not fair that you're not giving me romantic attention attention or wanting to be with me. You'd rather be with Joey, even though he's mean and I'm nice. And she kisses him, and it this works for him.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

To do his nice guy rant.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Right. I enjoy that he calls her out on being selfish, but I struggle because his reasons for calling her selfish, I think, are tangled up in what you just said.

unknown 23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

And the truth is, you're selfish because you won't go on to it.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

She's selfish for a lot of reasons. I don't know that that's the one. Right. Unless we see, and I think we do get to see that she notices that he has feelings for her. Like he's pretty clear with that from the second she sits down to be tutored. He's like, Do you want to go on a date? And so there is an element here that I do think is Bianca using that power and taking advantage of knowing that he has feelings for her and will do whatever she wants. There is that piece there that isn't, like you said, a grain of truth to his feelings or his response to that. However, you're right, it continues to like perpetuate that narrative that like, I'm a nice guy and I was nice to you, and I wasn't as mean as the other guy.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Why won't you kiss me?

SPEAKER_03 23:59

Well, and it reinforces the like incell-y kind of nice guy perspective that like that is what girls are thinking and doing. They are just manipulating and trying to get what they want, and they're selfish, and you have to do this combination of nice guy song and dance, and also then call them out and be mean, and that gets you what you want, which is sex and attention. Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah, it's so it's so convoluted because and like knowing that you and I are people who like watch this with the lens of talking about these aspects for a podcast, most people, I suspect, are not doing that. And let alone young folks who are learning about sex and relationships through these shows, right? I mean, I know I I did, I got these messages, yeah, and was like, yeah, well, the if he's mean to you, he's either a narcissist or he really likes you, right? That like he pulled your pigtails on the playground. Um if a guy is mean to you and insults you, he's just being real, right? It's like the question that I wrote down in my crappy poem of is does she kiss him because she likes that he's being mean to her? Which, like, if that's her kink, get it. Or is it he's the first person who's ever been direct with her and seeing her as a human and not just let her get away with shit because she's cute. I can understand that being erotic for her or like a turn on. Or is it just reinforcing that when a guy is mean to you, that is a challenge for you to get him?

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yeah, and I there's a lot in here that is so mixed because, like you said, it could easily be a situation where, yeah, he he was honest with her and he didn't just say, Oh, well, whatever you want because you're cute, and if I just say yes to you enough, maybe then you'll kiss me or give me sex or whatever. He he risked her saying no to be direct with her about she was how she was impacting him. And similar to the whole situation with Heath Ledger and Julia Styles, like, there's a lot in that story that is very cute and rewarding, and we can see as the audience that they do actually have a lot in common, including how others treat them and interact with them. But that ultimately is also a narrative of like it's fine to be extremely persistent if someone tells you no. And persistence is positive, and putting a public spotlight on yourself to like low-key pressure the person into going out with you again is romantic and sweet.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Yeah, the grand gesture, always with the grand gesture.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Grand gesture. But what did you think of the grand gesture? The song and dance on the on the stone bleachers.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

I thought it was a from a movie perspective, what a delightful little scene. It was fun, it was whimsical, it played in his favor. And what I thought was interesting about the grand gesture, I think we could have a whole conversation writ large about grand gestures in movies in general, and like what is that saying to us about intimacy and what it is to be in relationship or like who the grand gesture is for. I think often the grand gesture we are told to make to think that it is about the person who is being gestured to, but really it's about the person doing the gesturing. And for him in this scene, it was what made it interesting to me and worth noting, neither good nor bad, is that it was not about I'm gonna do this to get her back because she'll like it. I am going to humiliate myself so that she feels vindicated. His his goal, like the goal or they hoped for outcome was the same, which was I want us to be okay and I want to get back on track, quote unquote. But the the goal was never she's gonna love this. It's or she's going to love this because it embarrasses me and she'll be happy to see me embarrassed, which is slightly different, I think, than some of the grand gesture narratives we've seen. I agree. Is it still fucked up because the the what would have been better or quote unquote, you know, maybe more realistic or more challenging but worthwhile would have been trying to have an actual conversation. But that's not what makes for good movies. Not like a song and dance with a marching band.

SPEAKER_03 28:50

Song and Dance with a Marching Band is much more fun, to be fair. And you're right, it is unique because he did go into it with the explicit goal to humiliate myself in front of her. That is my goal. And the reason that this scene is fucked up is because it made my tummy hurt to watch it. Because it was making me feel like just so like the secondhand embarrassment was so much.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

So he was at the time.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

I almost couldn't do it. It was really effective. Yeah. I almost couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Really?

SPEAKER_03 29:22

Yes. And it surprised me because usually I like that kind of awkward humor and it doesn't get to me that bad. What was it, do you think? Oh my god. I don't know. I don't know. I think it was. I think it like related very much to the high school part of me that was like, my main goal is to just survive this shit as invisible as I can to get through unscathed. I do not need any extra attention on myself. And the idea of I will just get a microphone, I will get the band to play this song, and I will sing it and run along these bleachers in front of not the whole school, but an enormous public audience.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Yes. There's a narrative, there's a narrative in it in the movie too that backs this up for him that he is incredibly self-assured, right? He does assume that whatever he wants, he can get, which is very similar to every other dude in this movie. What makes it different, I think, is that he's Heath Ledger.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Well, yeah, he's Heath Ledger, so it's true.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

He can get it.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

And he's Australian, so and he's Australian. He's got his little Australian accent coming through.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Australian. There's something about his Yeah. What is it about him that makes it hit different?

SPEAKER_02 30:48

It's because he's sharp and he's charming.

SPEAKER_03 30:51

He's charming, he's attractive. He was, I think he did maybe the most sincere acting job. A lot of the other actors seem to be going for the really like campy over the top, which was fun. But he he was a little more like grounded. Grounded, I guess. I don't know. I'm I'm kind of talking out my ass right now. I don't much know much about movies, but yes, you do. That's what it felt like to me.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Yeah. No, he did feel much more grounded. I think we get to see him make selfless or self-sacrificing decisions for wanting to connect with another person, which is not something we see from anybody else.

unknown 31:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Even though the premise is that he it's only self-sacrificing because he agreed to be shitty in the first place. That's real. But we do see him throughout the movie use all of the money he's been given on her.

SPEAKER_03 31:44

Yeah. Well, and he seemed to gain a genuine like respect and understanding of her as a person and not just like, but she's still really hot, so I I want to make out with her, so I'll keep going on my plan. Like JGL's whole thing seemed to be.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

Yeah, I don't think that he expected to, and he says that, right? I didn't expect to fall for her. What complicated it in this watch for me, and I caught things that I had never caught before. I loved seeing that when he goes to Club Skunk, which is like the I think we're supposed to believe is kind of like the indie rocker chick club in town. He goes and he sees her dancing, and we get to watch him watch her having fun and be carefree. And we see him not it didn't read to me as him being like, oh, she's hot now. It didn't feel like it didn't feel like a she's all that, let me take your glasses off moment by any means. It felt much more like, oh, there she is. Like that's yeah, that's her when she's when her walls aren't up, when she's actually being herself. And the whole club skunk thing was really fascinating to me. And I think that there's lots of I I want to know your thought on this. Or I want to posit a theory, and I'm curious what you would say. Is they meet him at a bar where he's smoking, and after they've gone through her bedroom, which we can unpack that, you know, Room Raiders invasion of privacy.

SPEAKER_04 33:21

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

And they tell him what they found. They give him a list of of bands that or she has CDs of. They they tell her that this, or they tell him she doesn't like guys who smoke, and they eventually are like, listen, a band that she loves is playing at Club Skunk tomorrow. We got you a ticket, you've got to go. And he responds by being like, I cannot go to Club Skunk.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

That it would be kind of like social suicide to go to Club Skunk, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah. Uh he goes. First of all, we see him walk in with these wild pants on. Did you notice his pants? I didn't notice his pants. I'm not then I'm not gonna describe it. Listener, I'm not gonna describe the pants to you. I need you all to go back and look this up.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

Anyway, look at his pants to Club Skunk.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

He goes to Club Skunk and he watches her dance for a little bit. And then instead of pursuing her, he goes back to the bar. And when he gets to the bar, the bartender says, Hey Verona, what are you doing here tonight? Which implies that not only has he been to Club Skunk, he is a regular at Club Skunk.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

And he, you know, he makes a when she comes up to him and realizes he's there, he says something that's we're supposed to believe that it's him just dropping band names that she knows or likes from the list, saying, like, oh, they're no bikini kill or rainbow, something or other. And I after this, Verona, what are you doing here tonight? I'm like, what if this is actually his interests? And what of this is from the Intel? Because he shows up at the at the bookstore and is like, Can I have a copy of the feminine mystique offhand? Right? Like he knows her world, he knows her references. And I don't know how much we're supposed to think, oh, this is just because it's hyperbolic feminism 101 stuff. And what is wait, maybe he's not lying about any of this. Like maybe it they actually, maybe he does like bikini kill. Maybe he is at Club Skunk and we just didn't know. That threw that gave me a whole Truman show level of being like, wait, are these actually his interests?

SPEAKER_03 35:43

It could be. It could be. I remember thinking like the look on his face when he was reading through the list of bands was also a little like, oh, okay, good choice. Like seemed to be his impression at times. So I could see it. I could also see that this club has a variety of different bands that come through, and he was saying, I can't be seen there when this band is playing, but he goes there for other bands, maybe. But then prom Because this one was all all women were in there. It was all women in there, and they're all looking at him when he comes in. But you're right, at prom, he gets that band to play. And what does he say? He says, I called in a favor. Exactly. With who, Heath Ledger. Exactly. With who? With who? Heath, where'd you get that favor?

SPEAKER_02 36:30

This is now my new like fan fiction conspiracy theory is that he's like the booking agent for Club Skunk. He only listens to like queer female-fronted bands. He's a riot girl, he loves Betty Ferdant. He's out here reading Bell Hooks on Love.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

Yeah, he could be. I would believe it, honestly, because he is so. He also seems to enjoy, like Julia Stiles does, that people think all these scary things about him, but he's not necessarily a scary guy. Like he's in the they show him a couple times in like the wood shop or metal shop or whatever, doing a variety of things. It's like big man stuff, operating machinery, and sparks, and it's scary. But then, like, one time when they're there and talking to him, he does a couple things, and one of the things he does is he's like moving around these pieces of like cut stained glass. And I was like, is he just an artist? Is he working on his art in here?

SPEAKER_02 37:28

And it's not some like listen, I'm a that's catnip.

SPEAKER_03 37:31

It's a metal thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Catnip. A my sexuality is is is is the middle. I need I love I love a man who is like doing sensitive, like femme things. I love a woman who is doing butchy things. I love your non-binary folks in the center. I just love the interplay of all of those. So I was catnip for him in that shirt and those wild ass pants. Blair, you gotta pull up the pants.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

They're gonna look up sparkly.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

They're sparkly, tight.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Sparkly pants. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Okay, I gotta look them up. I'll have to look up the pants. I can't believe I didn't notice the pants. I there was just so much other things coming at me because this was also right after they went into Julia's. So Bianca and JGL go into Julia's room. And they're rifling through all of her shit. Like her desk, they're going through her underwear drawer. Her sister pulls out black underwear. I cannot stress what a normal pair of underwear this is. It is regular, full cut full coverage.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Black briefs.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Black briefs. And I'm talking opaque black.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

Yeah, there's no lace, there's no bedazzlements, there's no thong to it. Maybe some no apple.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Maybe some elastic. Nothing. And she says, Do you see this? Do you know what this means? Bianca is the one saying this. This means she wants to have sex. Black lingerie is for somebody to see. And I was so confused. I was like, This is first of all, girl, this is not lingerie. I don't know how much this is like. We are meant to be laughing at the teenager's silly little rules that are not real rules. Yeah. And how much is like, what in the fucking 1990s slut shaming is this? Because I I remember shit like this. Like, oh my god, thongs when thongs were coming out, and it was like, Dish. I heard that she got a thong. And it was like a scandalous thing.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

I know. Need we look back at Degrassi. You got the look.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

Need we look back at Degrassi.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Justice for Manny Santos. In her case, she did want people to see it. Like, quite literally, she wanted people to see the thong, which is fine. It was a statement. As is her right.

SPEAKER_03 39:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Yeah. And they even say to Heath Ledger, she does have black underwear, if that helps. And you know that Joseph Gordon Levitt has no idea really what that means. He's still catching up.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

But Heath Ledger's like, oh, like he knew this rule as well.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

And the most important piece of context, I think, we haven't really touched on is when Bianca's upset because she doesn't think she's going to get to go to prom because Kat is unwilling to. Kat just had her fight with Heath Ledger on the beautiful wraparound porch after they went on the most whimsical 1999 date ever, which was paddle boats and then paint gun date.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Yes. Yeah. But it was like paint balloon balls.

SPEAKER_02 40:41

Yeah. It looked fun. Water balloons. They go to they he's trying to get her to go to prom. She feels like he's pushing it, and then they have a fight. That's when Bianca's like, I'm gonna go to prom and Julia Stiles is not budging. She goes into Bianca's room and tries to explain why she is the way she is, because Bianca's whole narrative is like, you just don't care what people think. And like people like it's okay to care what people think sometimes, or like you're trying so hard to be weird. Stop being weird is basically the narrative. Julia Stiles shares that she and Dochey Model Joey dated in ninth grade for a month, and that they had sex. And when she realized that she actually didn't think she was ready for sex, they did it once because everyone else was doing it, was kind of her narrative. She realized that she did not want to anymore, and so he dumped her, but she never told he never told anyone because she threatened to tell everyone on the soccer team how tiny his dick is, which you know, there's something there. And she didn't tell Bianca because she wanted her to make her own opinions about him. And Bianca has a fair rebuttal, which is like, I still get to make my decisions for myself. Stop trying to protect me from knowledge or protect me from experiences. Like, I know not all experiences are good exp are are good ones or are not all created equal. And this is still you trying to shield me and take away my autonomy and my decision-making power. Which I thought was an interesting kind of origin story, lore, reason that we see from Julia Stiles as to like, I used to I used to care what people thought, and then this happened to me. And I'm curious for you what that piece of information did for you as a viewer watching it the first time.

SPEAKER_03 42:42

Um, I think it was interesting. I it obviously explained a lot of like just why she is so aggressive with Joey a lot of the time and why she was a bit controlling, specifically about Joey and her sister. And I think like I'm trying to think what I would see as a younger person, like in the 1990s, watching this. Uh, because Julia also had so much of this like not like other girls thing going on.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

That I think what I gather from this is like exactly what I thought. Being not like other girls is a way to be safe from douchebags. And it works, it works for her, and she gets Heath Lodger. So, you know, I'm watching this and I'm like, okay, great. That sounds good to me.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Yeah, this works.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

That that, like you said, paintball sort of date seemed really fun.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

And they have a sweet kiss laying in hay covered in paint.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

Very cute kiss.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

He's big into the hair. Have you noticed that in his kissing style? Every single time he kisses her, he does he tucks her hair away.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Uh huh. Even if it's back to back kisses. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

He's into it.

SPEAKER_03 43:59

And I don't know. That's just a movie thing if he's like, make sure you can see her face, or or I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

I thought in some moments I thought that's what it was, but he does it in moments where it's like we can see her just fine, or the camera's not even we don't see her face at all, it's just his that we're seeing. Yeah, he was a he was a hair guy. He just likes hair, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Yeah, he was a hair guy, which yeah, I was like, you know, as a young person, this all sounds this all fits in pretty much with what I thought. And if you have sex when you're too young, something bad will happen. He this man will turn out to be a douchebag and he will threaten to tell everyone, which would be the end of the world.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Right. And this whole like boys only want one thing narrative, the dad is uplifting, is infuriating and like I think is one of the many ways that patriarchy harms like men and their ability to like be vulnerable and complicated and have a vast array of emotions without shame. Unless they're Heath Ledger, I guess, and then he's hot enough and has enough social capital and currency in his identities that he can do whatever he wants. But then we see that like it is in this movie, the dad is quote unquote right, or like technically right. They're like, Yeah, you're right. These boys do only want one thing. The question becomes, what do the girls want? Maybe the girls are allowed to want one thing, but I think the assumption is not that it's just one thing. They want love too. They want love and sex. Maybe, maybe sex, they want experiences.

SPEAKER_03 45:29

They want something, but they're maybe not sure what it is.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

Yeah. But we can't let them decide. We can't let them decide. We have to let them, we have to protect them from themselves.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Well, yeah, at all costs, they can't decide what it is. What is tell me about your healthy ever after and has it changed since because you said you've watched this many times in your life.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

It's been a while, but I've seen it many times in my life, yes. My healthy ever after or healthier ever after is well, also, we only have like a few months before she moves to Sarah Lawrence.

SPEAKER_03 46:06

So about to go to the East Coast for school.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Yeah. I I my my hope for her and Heath is that they like have a lovely summer together and maybe they try long distance. Maybe he moves and does some cool artsy shit on the East Coast too. But if nothing else, I hope that they continue to explore the things that they are like their their goals and their passions, and like cheer each other on in that, which is what I think we get a little hint of. She wants to be in a band, and he's like, let's do it, let's make it happen. She I think that my hope is that this relationship teaches them both that they can be a little bit, they can let the world in a little bit more when things are hard. My hope is that they figure out how to talk about their feelings instead of just freaking out when they rub each other the wrong way.

unknown 47:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

I think Bianca and Joseph Gordon Levitt, I mean, they're both babies, right? They're both sophomores. I don't know that my wish is ever like forever after. I don't think that that's a realistic wish for the world or like should be the goal for the world. But I hope that they continue to have fun together and maybe he realizes his part in this whole thing was pretty fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

Yeah. Cause he still seems to see himself as unproblematic in all of this.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

I hope that with with growth and experience as a human in relationship, he realizes the places that he bought into taking her agency away. And I hope Bianca lets herself realize that she can she's allowed to show her substance to the to the world and not just be a Barbie. Mostly I also hope that the dad goes to therapy and figures out how to process that his wife left him. I'm curious where the wife is. I want to I want to spin off about where's mom? What's she up to? Why'd she leave? Is she on the East Coast? Is she secretly the mom from Princess Diaries 2 when she's an artist in a firehouse in San Francisco? I want that. I want that crossover episode.

SPEAKER_04 48:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Yeah. So I have lots of curiosities, and my overarching hope is that we find out that Heath Ledger is gonna become an intern who goes on the road with Bikini Kill and become a booking manager for Club Skunk.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

That'd be awesome. I would love to see that. What about you? I I agree with pretty much everything you said. So I'm gonna focus on for my my healthier ever after. My hope would be that in this experience, the dad, because he started to have some realizations toward the end about like I'm having a bit of a crisis about my oldest daughter going off to college. I hope they go to family therapy. They clearly have a lot to work on with how they each relate to each other. The youngest feels really beholden to what the oldest does and has been literally told your timeline on things is directly tied to her and she has control over your life. Surely they all have something about wherever mom is and whatever's going on with all of that.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

I thought this whole this was the first time I watched it and realized that mom's not dead.

SPEAKER_03 49:27

Uh yeah. I was like, where the is she dead? What the fuck? Mom left.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

It's the whole pearl interaction where it's like, you have mom's pearls. I'm like, well, if mom's dead, I could see that being really sensitive, but then no, she did not. She just gone.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

But they had this whole argument. She was like, you can't just wear them now. What are you doing? And she's like, she's not fucking coming back. And it's like, oh my god, there's a lot of still very raw emotion. She left three years ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

That's very fresh.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

They they they clearly need to work through this. Dad needs some support and parenting through slowly increasing independence and emerging adulthood. And they all need to figure out how to navigate that together and be more supportive and vulnerable with each other. So I really hope they get some family therapy. I think that would help a lot.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

I think so too.

SPEAKER_03 50:18

But Veronica, it's already that time again. I think mom is she's about to come home.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Okay. What are you gonna put on to throw her off the scent that you've been watching? Empathy bellies at wild parties.

SPEAKER_03 50:33

I don't know. Maybe I'll just get out my copy of the bell jar and start reading there.

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Yeah, I think that's good. I'm gonna go yellow wallpaper on this one.

SPEAKER_03 50:41

Yeah, and I'm I need to hide my black underwear, apparently. I didn't know it meant all that. So I need to really bury that deep in my drawer.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Yeah, she can't find it.

SPEAKER_03 50:48

So no one finds it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

Well, join us next time for Pride and Prejudice.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

One more classics. Big one.

SPEAKER_03 50:57

I'm so excited for that.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

I know.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

And I'll see you then. All right.

SPEAKER_01 51:00

Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Bye. Thank you so much for joining us today on Mom's Not Home Till Six. Leave us a rating or review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you found us. Pitch us your alternate ending or send suggestions to mom's not home till six at gmail.com. It's probably no punctuation and then numeral six. You can find more from us by following us on Instagram at mom's not home till six or on blue sky at mom's not home. Find more from Veronica by following her on Instagram at the DressRearsal, or support the podcast financially on Patreon at DressRearsal. We'd like to extend our gratitude to the queer and trans community, past and present, have made it possible to keep people here today. And to you for listening. Now be sure to change that TV channel back to something appropriate before mom gets home. And we'll catch you next time.